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AudioGasoline



Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@FoxAnd Fish-
As usual, your points are very good, and I certainly agree with your sentiments. I think the crux of this issue is that Bing and other engines haven't really opened their doors in the way that Google did: telling us how to use their search attributes, etc. I have never seen anything from Bing to tell us how to rank higher in their search, besides the website submission form. Tags, title tags, metatags, keyword lists and all that meta-data stuff seem to help immensely, but this was all discovered haphazardly and gratefully shared on seller forums like this one.

This is a case of carp rolling uphill: Ecrater can't provide any guidance because Bing hasn't provided any guidance. And there are so many mysterious quirks with their search.

Here's something I haven't seen discussed yet: is there any reason to think that Bing doesn't simply piggyback on Google's attributes? I have no idea... but since attributes are so routinely included in any product description/feed/XML file etc, why wouldn't Bing use that information for themselves, in their own way? Besides the RSS feeds, I think even the crawlers can read that information. Just seems like an easy thing for Bing's algorithms to grab that data in the same way that Google's algorithms do... what they do with that data, though, is beyond me.
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FoxAndFish



Posts: 1585

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AudioGasoline wrote:
I think the crux of this issue is that Bing and other engines haven't really opened their doors in the way that Google did: telling us how to use their search attributes, etc.

I think b/c the other search entities haven't developed their shopping engines to the extent Google has (if they have them at all). Bing has only been around since 2009, and its predecessors had a troubled history. MSN started as an ISP and grew into a portal, like Yahoo and AOL, where search was an adjunct. Google was dedicated to search from the start.

AudioGasoline wrote:
I have never seen anything from Bing to tell us how to rank higher in their search

Well, we have seen that from Google, but it's been largely bogus. To my mind, it's been the equivalent of giving the users busy work as a distraction or as a way to get the users to do work that largely benefits Google.

AudioGasoline wrote:
Ecrater can't provide any guidance because Bing hasn't provided any guidance.

Maybe b/c Bing has no guidance to offer.

AudioGasoline wrote:
is there any reason to think that Bing doesn't simply piggyback on Google's attributes? I have no idea

No idea, either. But, as far as I'm concerned, the whole purpose of the attributes was so that Google could get its ducks in a row to eventually launch paid insertion. (Remember that Google Product Search evolved from Base and Froogle, which were wild-wild-west user-generated content with minimal structure.) Forcing users to put in ISBN and size, etc, didn't lead to the "better user experience" Google is so fond of claiming as its goal. It lead to neater, easier-to-manage data for Product Search that could more easily be converted into paid listings. It is almost never that an entity does something for the consumer's benefit...and I have no reason to believe that Google attributes provided benefit for anyone but Google. Probably in a way that may not be useful to Bing or any other organic or shopping search engine, which is why they don't get picked up.
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AudioGasoline



Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm

I guess you're right, but it was working pretty well there for a while, right? I've only been here a few months, but I wouldn't have come at all if I hadn't seen the praise it got from it's sellers (and buyers). Sellers were still benefiting from jumping through Google's hoops more than they are now (and the big change is still coming). I mean, the structure was still an effective sales platform, before the attempt at monetization, as long as you were diligent with your attributes and backlinks and directory submissions. The monetization seems more sloppily forced onto the Google framework to me, rather than a slow calculated build-up. If this is really what they've been working towards all these years, why is it so half-witted and shallow?
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FoxAndFish



Posts: 1585

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AudioGasoline wrote:
it was working pretty well there for a while, right?

Hard to tell. There are a few threads or conversations within threads about how much an individual seller benefited from Google Shopping. Some sellers say lots, some say none. Some sellers maintain that customers don't even know what Google Shopping is. To my mind, what worked most effectively was that Google organic picked up snippets out of Google Shopping to feature prominently on Page 1 of results. So if your product was rare enough, it might be featured in Google organic via Google Shopping. That will now end unless the seller pays to be in Shopping.

AudioGasoline wrote:
I wouldn't have come at all if I hadn't seen the praise it got from it's sellers (and buyers). Sellers were still benefiting from jumping through Google's hoops more than they are now (and the big change is still coming).

eCrater is a terrific platform...hats way way off to the people who founded and run it. In a sea of slime, eCrater has maintained its integrity and found a way to make a business without abusing its users. Can't say enough good things about that. But I don't know how much that has to do with Google Shopping. I think the site has made a strong effort to help the sellers as much as possible to comply with Google's requirements.

AudioGasoline wrote:
I mean, the structure was still an effective sales platform, before the attempt at monetization, as long as you were diligent with your attributes and backlinks and directory submissions.

Again, don't know how effective Google Shopping is. Depends on the individual seller.

AudioGasoline wrote:
The monetization seems more sloppily forced onto the Google framework to me, rather than a slow calculated build-up. If this is really what they've been working towards all these years, why is it so half-witted and shallow?

I don't know how many years "all these years" is. I think Google changed, was forced to change, drastically b/c of the IPO in 2004...at some point it stopped making massive returns without breaking a sweat and had to find a way to feed its investors. Do I think that Brin and Page had visions of billions dancing in their heads in 1998? Not necessarily. But it is the rapacious nature of American enterprise that more and more money has to come in as companies mature...and in order to achieve that, it is nearly inevitable that the company has to employ more and more techniques that become more and more snakey. The presentation of the money grab is half-witted and shallow b/c it's hard to put lipstick on a pig, as I've said...and I think some tech companies are so into their geek bubble that they don't understand how to do really smooth maneuvers the way, say, Proctor and Gamble or Pfizer does. Or, Google just doesn't care how they appear, b/c there's no competition and none on the horizon, so half-witted and shallow gets the job done. There are actually sellers who are buying Google's line that paying for shopping search will make it "better." So Google is also counting on the half-wittedness and shallowness of its users, as most companies do.
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MoonwishesStore
moderator


Posts: 17043

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, we have seen that from Google, but it's been largely bogus. To my mind, it's been the equivalent of giving the users busy work as a distraction or as a way to get the users to do work that largely benefits Google.
I like that "busy work' as well as putting lipstick on a pig! Very Happy Yep Google has been plotting this I'm sure for a while now and with seller's listings all primed to be able to take advantage of adwords and the new google shopping. Can you imagine the outcry would have been if they had come along now and said we will only put for sale listings on the shopping page if you pay for it AND you have to do all these attributes as well!!! It took months for us to get the attibutes down pat and Google NEEDED that information to help them plan and set up this new system. I think if they had asked for both at the same time, even the big box folks would have told them to go take a flying leap.

Kudos to ecrater for running this site with integrity. They have done what they promised and it is a good site to sell on. However, I too have found that I have to spread my eggs out a little bit. I have my brain full of new ideas to try so currently I'm not real discouraged right now, I'm looking forward to planning and setting up some goals to get my store into the limelight. IF those plans go splat then I will be discouraged. Promoting our stores (on just about ANY venue) is going to take some real work from this point on, and I think one of the best reasons to sell in a niche as I have always mentioned. I wish at this point there was a way to figure out if a store with ecletic product does better or worse against a store that sells one category of items, just because of the work that will be needed to promote.

In all this though, I find it interesting to see that some sellers still aren't to concerned with promoting their stores. I just got my son's birthday present in the mail from an Amazon third party seller. With over 3000 lifetime feedacks, I expected a professional shipping job. Nope. Hand written return address (unreadable), signature confirmation sticker bought from the PO which adds on what 70 cents? extra per package mailed, NO-NADA-NONE packing slip or invoice instide the package. So unless I remembered that I got it at Amazon and went to the trouble to find this seller to leave feedback or shop with this seller again, there is no way to try to buy from them again. How in the world can someone get that kind of feedback and do that volume of sales without a printed address label and a packing sheet? They are making no effort at all to promote their store. The easy answer is you don't need to on Amazon, but the right answer should be, do what you can to bring your customer back because on line searches aren't going to be there to help you, especially if you sell on other venues.
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oakteakstore



Posts: 1050

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think continuing to use Attributes will help in any search venue, since it helps long tail searches and it is probably just good form for getting seen anywhere online. I'll continue to do it.

I'm finding that Google Checkout (Wallet, whatever) is no longer the preferred payment method. It used to be heavily preferred, now PayPal is the one.
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thecheapskirt



Posts: 2123

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakteakstore wrote:
I think continuing to use Attributes will help in any search venue, since it helps long tail searches


I thought attributes weren't indexed in normal Google search? I mean, they don't even show up in the listing's code, so how would they get picked up in an organic search by a search engine?
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aspencounty



Posts: 815

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thecheapskirt wrote:
oakteakstore wrote:
I think continuing to use Attributes will help in any search venue, since it helps long tail searches


I thought attributes weren't indexed in normal Google search? I mean, they don't even show up in the listing's code, so how would they get picked up in an organic search by a search engine?


Short answer is they are not, they are unique to Shopping.The attributes thing was something Google started using solely for Google Shopping and had something to do with how products were displayed. Now that it (Shopping) is changing to a paid advertising model and $ look to be the determining factor as to where and when stuff shows up, I see attributes become less and less relevant. I did read something here about Ecrater possibly doing something with them (?) but they have no bearing on normal search engine placement.
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thecheapskirt



Posts: 2123

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't care that my items don't appear in Google Product Search.

Why?

I just did a Google Product Search on the words

mira hair oil

and got the worst garbage results. Tons of beard trimmers, a wig, and some cleaning cloth. Not a SINGLE result that matched my query, even remotely!

And this is despite the fact that there are currently 27 listings for it on eBay and 20 more on Amazon.com

So... Google is failing bigtime. Who would PAY for that? Yuck.
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oakteakstore



Posts: 1050

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google just got a direct hit from the Apple/Samsung decision and their Android app. There is even speculation that Apple might sue Google too.

Wonder how that will affect Google Shopping.
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SammysSupplies



Posts: 1631

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they do sue Google, won't they need that income from the paid placement? I guess I don't see where it will affect it at all.

Last edited by SammysSupplies on Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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oakteakstore



Posts: 1050

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

has anyone actually signed up for an Adsense account?
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MoonwishesStore
moderator


Posts: 17043

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
has anyone actually signed up for an Adsense account?


Do you mean Adwords? I have an Adsense account. Many of us do to earn a few cents from the ads at the bottom of our listings. This month, as slow as sales are have been, I've been doing fairly well on Adsense. Over $11 so far this month but that counts my blog as well.

I have also tried Adwords and didn't find it to be of any help in getting folks to my site. Twice Google has sent me coupons for like $100 to try it. I have gotten more coupons than that, but usually they say only if you have never signed up before. I'm surprised that we all haven't received coupons in the mail to try Adwords--which I'm happy to do as long as I don't have to pay for it.
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thecheapskirt



Posts: 2123

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they aren't going to tell us how much they are going to charge us to appear in Google Shopping, I'm not linking my AdWords account to eCrater.

I just think they should be up front and transparent and tell us how much we will be charged--I don't want to wake up to a $100 bill in my credit card for something as lame as Google Shopping exposure for a week.
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oakteakstore



Posts: 1050

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I DID mean Adwords, sorry for the confusion. LOL
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