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carolinablueladybooktreasures
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: Ambiguous GTIN code |
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In my ecrater book store, I am seeing the following 'problem' for most of my books. It says "Ambiguous GTIN code" This has been showing for over a month now and I can't figure out what is wrong.
None of the items have been excluded and they are showing up in google shopping. I only list the ISBN (usually the 10 digit) and only if I have it. I do not list both an ISBN + a GTIN. For the books that I don't have the ISBN, I use the identifier_exists false.
The 5 examples it is giving me all have the ISBN listed in the attributes. I supposedly have 155 books that have this problem. I just went in and changed the ISBN for 2 of the books to the 13 digit number instead of the 10 digit number. And will see if that does anything. It shouldn't make any difference.
Does anyone know why one would get this 'problem'? |
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tigercreekgifts
Posts: 6293
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
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GTIN (global trade item number) is just a general name for the following: UPC, EAN, MPN, ISBN and so on. So an ISBN is a GTIN so if you listed one, then you do have a GTIN for your product. Now, ambiguous means having a double meaning which in the case of an ISBN it would probably mean that ISBN has been assigned to more than one book. Did these books come as part of a box set which you are selling individually or are were they sold individually in stores but part of a series or collection? Sometimes book can have the same ISBN, even if sold separately in stores, because they came from the same series or collection and the printing company did not assign each book with a unique number.
Also, and this is just a guess as I do not sell vintage books, but if the books are really old and came out around the time when books first started getting ISBN's it may be possible that they all have the same ISBN because the company was assigning that number to all the books they published? Maybe if old enough the companies just hadn't figured out how to make an effective ISBN numbering system yet?
I have received this error code once or twice and each time it was for a handful of books that were all part of the same series. Did you check to see if some of the flagged books may have the same ISBN? One time I realized this was the case and had to remove the ISBN and replace it with identifier_exists and after that they were accepted. The second time this happened all the flagged books that were part of the same series, had different ISBN's and I still got this error however that time, since their ISBN's were different, using identifier_exists and removing the codes did not fix the problem, for 3 months straight google kept saying flagged for no isbn or upc listed but when I did list an ISBN it was rejected.
If you still cannot figure it out you might need to contact ecrater. They walked me thru this the first time it happened to me but the 2nd time that I explained above they were just as stumped as me and had to file for a exemption for those items with google on my behalf but shortly after they were approved. You can also encounter different books with identical UPC's as well. |
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SheilaDeesPostcards
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Posts: 4620
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have been dealing with Google's quest for ISBN numbers since their first request. Currently almost 80% of my books are reported as having "Ambiguous GTIN code", but 100% of my books are listed in Google Shopping. I've worked with eCRATER customer service and I've studied many of my titles compared to other copies listed in Google Shopping.
IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, I think there are several reasons my books are reported as having ambiguous GTIN code. I have been VERY careful to add the ISBN as given when the book was printed. I deal in a lot of vintage paperbacks and pre-ISBN series books. Some sellers who wanted to "please GS" have added the ISBN number assigned to newer copies to older publications. The computer compares the titles and sees books with the same titles that have conflicting information in the ISBN field. For example, the Nancy Drew "flashlight" additions that you can buy currently are very different from the versions published in the early 1970s, 1950s, 1940s and 1930s. They have the same titles and author, but the books are not the same. I also have many vintage, first printing paperbacks that were later re-issued (but not new editions) with ISBNs. If you only want the book to read, it doesn't matter, but if you want the original printing it came without an ISBN. These almost always are reported as being "ambiguous".
Google Shopping is trying to use the ISBN in a different way from the way the ISBN number was designed. The number was designed to identify a new item in the supply chain and inventory control. If you order a new copy of ABC Book, the ISBN would be helpful. However, if you want the original printing from 1971 which never had an ISBN number, then having the ISBN of the current issue is worthless. All my books are used. If the book was printed with an ISBN, I list it. If the book was not printed with an ISBN, I use the identifier_exists attribute with the value of FALSE.
When this first came out, GS didn't give booksellers the option of identifier_exists. The eCRATER CS staff and I worked closely to get all my books accepted. In some cases, I had to send scans of the copyright pages and front covers to show my collectable editions were not released with ISBNs. In one case it took almost 2 months for GS to accept the book. 
carolinablueladybooktreasures, know your books! If the book was published with an ISBN, submit the attribute. If it was published without an ISBN (even if it was later published with an ISBN), then use the identifier_exists False. That is the correct attribute for the copy you are selling. I have been told that the notice does not affect our placement in GS and I've found that to be true. I find it highly annoying to see it on my feed status page, but I do recognize that the information is coming from Google Shopping and eCRATER is just the messenger. Remember, Google is not a book seller! |
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cosmicray
Posts: 7286
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Ambiguous GTIN code |
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| carolinablueladybooktreasures wrote: | | None of the items have been excluded and they are showing up in google shopping. I only list the ISBN (usually the 10 digit) and only if I have it. I do not list both an ISBN + a GTIN. For the books that I don't have the ISBN, I use the identifier_exists false. |
The wikipedia says | Quote: | | GTINs may be 8, 12, 13 or 14 digits long |
So it sounds like a 10 digit number, by itself, isn't a GTIN. Then it goes on to say ...
| Quote: | | All books and serial publications sold internationally (including those in U.S. stores) have GTIN (GTIN-13) codes. The book codes are either constructed by prefixing the old ISBN 10 number with 978, and recalculating the trailing check digit, or from 1 January 2007 issued as thirteen digits starting with 978 (eventually 979 as the 978 ranges are used up). |
The check digit is the right-most digit.
The GTIN article is here ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Trade_Item_Number
The ISBN article is here ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number
A check digit calculator is here ... http://www.gtin.info/check-digit-calculator/
The last digit of the ISBN is the check digit. The example on the Wikipedia page has a check digit of '0'. If you only have a 10-digit number to begin with, toss the right most digit, then append '978' to the beginning. At that point you have a 12-digit GTIN in need of a check digit. Use the check digit calculator (the GTIN-13/GLN line) to enter the 12 digits. Hit calculate, and that will generate the check digit (which gets appended to the right, to make it a 13 digit number). Enter that 13-digit number for the attribute value. |
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SheilaDeesPostcards
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Posts: 4620
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Ambiguous GTIN code |
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| cosmicray wrote: | | The last digit of the ISBN is the check digit. The example on the Wikipedia page has a check digit of '0'. If you only have a 10-digit number to begin with, toss the right most digit, then append '978' to the beginning. At that point you have a 12-digit GTIN in need of a check digit. Use the check digit calculator (the GTIN-13/GLN line) to enter the 12 digits. Hit calculate, and that will generate the check digit (which gets appended to the right, to make it a 13 digit number). Enter that 13-digit number for the attribute value. |
Google Shopping requires an ISBN for books. If the international Standard Book number for the book you are selling was only 10 digits, then that is the ISBN for that printing of the book. A later printing of the same book may carry the new 13 digit number, but it probably has a revised cover as well. Wikipedia's answer may be correct, but it's not the best answer to collectible earlier copies of books. |
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cosmicray
Posts: 7286
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ambiguous GTIN code |
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| SheilaDeesPostcards wrote: | | cosmicray wrote: | | The last digit of the ISBN is the check digit. The example on the Wikipedia page has a check digit of '0'. If you only have a 10-digit number to begin with, toss the right most digit, then append '978' to the beginning. At that point you have a 12-digit GTIN in need of a check digit. Use the check digit calculator (the GTIN-13/GLN line) to enter the 12 digits. Hit calculate, and that will generate the check digit (which gets appended to the right, to make it a 13 digit number). Enter that 13-digit number for the attribute value. |
Google Shopping requires an ISBN for books. If the international Standard Book number for the book you are selling was only 10 digits, then that is the ISBN for that printing of the book. A later printing of the same book may carry the new 13 digit number, but it probably has a revised cover as well. Wikipedia's answer may be correct, but it's not the best answer to collectible earlier copies of books. |
Then I'm confused. Is GS complaining about the GTIN being ambiguous or the ISBN being ambiguous ? |
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Shaelily
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Ambiguous GTIN code |
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| cosmicray wrote: | | Then I'm confused. Is GS complaining about the GTIN being ambiguous or the ISBN being ambiguous ? |
GS doesn't specify which one they mean when they say "GTIN". I have "Invalid GTIN value" and "Restricted usage GTIN" and it is referring to UPCs on clothing. So as Tiger mentioned earlier | tigercreekgifts wrote: | | GTIN (global trade item number) is just a general name for the following: UPC, EAN, MPN, ISBN and so on |
You just have to figure it out for yourself I guess LOL.
| carolinablueladybooktreasures wrote: | | The 5 examples it is giving me all have the ISBN listed in the attributes. I supposedly have 155 books that have this problem. I just went in and changed the ISBN for 2 of the books to the 13 digit number instead of the 10 digit number. And will see if that does anything. It shouldn't make any difference. |
It takes several updates, even weeks for any changes to show. So you don't know if the problem is fixed until a couple weeks later. For the short list it was showing me "Restricted usage GTIN" on clothing, I went in and just removed the UPCs (they all started with a 4 and GS hates that). It didn't remove them from the black list until a couple weeks later. |
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carolinablueladybooktreasures
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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GS is complaining about the GTIN being ambiguous. I do not use the term GTIN in the attributes. I use the term ISBN for the books that have the code.
Most of these books are just individual books that my mother purchased from either book clubs, book stores, auctions, received as gifts or library book sales. There are a few sets of books, but most are just random books. Some are very old and do not have ISBNs and I have used the false identifier_exists for those. I have never used the GTIN term as a google attribute for books.
I'm not going to say that I didn't look some up in Amazon or Abe's to find the ISBN in the beginning before the false identifier_exists availability, but most that I have used are from the book itself. Out of the 155 books, I only have 5 listed as examples that I could check and those are actual ISBNs from the book itself.
There are quite a few books with multiple publishers and editions that are going to have different ISBNs. I only have 190 books listed at the moment and 155 is quite a high number. The other 35 are probably the older books that do not have an ISBNs and I'm using the false identifier_exists for those.
I guess I will request a complete listing from eCrater of the affected books and go through them one by one. Or just go through all of them - google can drive one crazy..............
Thanks for the imput |
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tigercreekgifts
Posts: 6293
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| carolinablueladybooktreasures wrote: | | GS is complaining about the GTIN being ambiguous. I do not use the term GTIN in the attributes. I use the term ISBN for the books that have the code. |
Yes but like I said, GTIN is just a general name that can represent anything from a UPC to an ISBN to an EAN. It's a global item number that gets assigned to every manufactured product in the world (except for some vintage and antiques and a few other rare exceptions). So GTIN means the same thing but every country has their own special name that they call it.
UPC is what the U.S. and Canada calls it for products sold in those two countries. It's used for retail sale purposes and inventory tracking so registers can scan them and companies can keep track of their sales for that item.
JAN is what the Japanese call their equivilent to a UPC.
EAN is what the Europeans call theirs.
ISBN can be used worldwide but is assigned to books only.
MPN is a part number that a manufacturing company assigns to their products. Some of the numbers identify the actual product and the rest of the numbers or letters identify their company name so the product can be traced back to having been made by them. The MPN is usually a 5 or 6 digit number with one or two letters on the end, separate from the UPC, that gets embossed into the back of most packages.
So when Google says ambiguous, restricted or invalid GTIN, they mean whatever code you happen to be using whether it be an ISBN or UPC or something else. Google is just too lazy to spell it out for us and say invalid upc or restricted isbn etc. They leave it up to us to figure this out but it should be obvious which number or code you used since google only requires one of those codes to be supplied for each product. If you have a newer book that has both an ISBN and a UPC on the back, they only require one of the 2.
So for whatever reason google is trying to suggest that your ISBN has been previously used for another book. Whether or not that ISBN actually belongs to two or more books, google doesn't care. Even if another seller used the same ISBN for a copy of that book that should not have been using it, google doesn't check to see who's right, they will automatically reject any future sellers that use the same ISBN if the product they list is not identical to the product the first seller who used that code, had listed. |
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MoonwishesStore
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Posts: 17389
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have much in the way of books listed here, but one I did list within the last month or two suddenly popped up with the ambiguous nonsense. Now I will ignore it as I know I used the proper ISBN which was the one in the book.
I think that more and more as people buy UPC numbers and stuff and Google and other places start insisting on them when they didn't come originally with them, we will be seeing more and more confusion about GTN codes, etc. |
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MoonwishesStore
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Posts: 17389
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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sorry duplicate post
Last edited by MoonwishesStore on Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cosmicray
Posts: 7286
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| carolinablueladybooktreasures wrote: | | GS is complaining about the GTIN being ambiguous. I do not use the term GTIN in the attributes. I use the term ISBN for the books that have the code. |
I'm going to make a vague stab at what the ambiguity is ...
The dictionary says: ambiguous |amˈbigyoōəs| adjective (of language) open to more than one interpretation; having a double meaning.
Based on what I have already wrote, a 10-digit ISBN (older system) can be converted into a 13-digit GTIN (newer system). But doing so may have an undesired side-effect (as described by SheilaDeesPostcards). Based on what GS is saying, it sounds like they think that supplying the 10-digit ISBN is not sufficient to tell them precisely which version of this specific book it is (or perhaps which edition), because the ISBN is ambiguous with the GTIN, or because the ISBN exists multiple times in their catalog.
Are there other attributes available to more precisely define the version/edition of the book ? I doubt this would be the printing, but who knows. |
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cosmicray
Posts: 7286
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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@SheilaDeesPostcards
Are you reasonably certain that ISBN attributes are being passed to GS as they are entered, and not converted to GTIN by the feed pre-processor ? |
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dccollectibles
Posts: 2760
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| While I'm curious to know the answer to that last question, I fail to see the point to all this--considering GS's handling of the data. So you provide what they ask for, now what is your reward for your hard work? You get lumped in with a bunch of other similar sellers' items, typically 3/4 of the way down the page, while a bunch of ebay listings are the top results! Some reward. If you check those listings, most of them have identifier_exists (or their version of it anyway) listed. Not much point. I know we all want to follow the rules, but when you actually get dunned for doing so, you're actually shooting yourself in the foot. |
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SheilaDeesPostcards
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| cosmicray wrote: | | Are you reasonably certain that ISBN attributes are being passed to GS as they are entered, and not converted to GTIN by the feed pre-processor ? |
No, I'm not certain, but I would find it highly unlikly. I would think they would leave this up to the seller. After all, a 13 digit ISBN should reflect titles printed after the introduction ot 13-digit ISBNs. A book published prior to 13-digits that has not been reprinted will never have a 13-digit number.
I also want to remind everyone reading this that book publishers are NOT REQUIRED to have an ISBN for a book. The ISBN system is related to tracking inventory and global sales. A publisher has to purchase an ISBN and they aren't cheap. If an author self-publishes and doesn't plan for global distribution, there is no reason to purchase an ISBN. Also, there are some small publishers and some organizations that publish & sell the titles themselves, so they have no need for an ISBN.
| cosmicray wrote: | | Are there other attributes available to more precisely define the version/edition of the book ? I doubt this would be the printing, but who knows. |
There were Google Attributes that were being used to help provide more precise information, however Google Shopping discontinued them a number of years ago. We were able to add date of publication and publisher. I do not think Google Shopping wants to design the system to show all the details in the book world.
I think GS is far more interested in current new items. I think they want to present one listing with every seller on the web who sells that current new item and is willing to pay to be shown in GS. |
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